I want Tim Tebow to Fail Part 2 - It was luck not prayer

Bruce: (an atheist) Well, the 2011 football season ended without any miracle win by the Broncos. 

Ary(Christian) Yes, I was disappointed.

Bruce: I guess all that Tebowing did no good.

Ary: Why would you say that?  They started the season 1 and 4.  After Tebow took over they were 7 and 4 with a novice quarterback.

Bruce:  They would have done better with Quinn instead of Tebow.

Ary:That is pure conjecture.  There is no way to prove that.

Bruce: But you have to admit that Tebow got the nod to replace Orton due to fan pressure not ability.

Ary: That may be true as well but the proof is in the pudding; once Tebow started playing the Broncos started winning.  Whether Quinn would have led them to a win over the Super Bowl Campions is another unknowable and if prayer didn’t work how does one account for the turnaround and final record of the Broncos?

Bruce: They got lucky under Tebow.

Ary:You don’t believe in prayer but you do believe in luck?

Bruce: Not the way you mean.  I mean Tebow’s weaknesses helped wear the defenses down. The whole game, the line is chasing the quarterback, which wears down the pass rush. Meanwhile, the backs are chasing receivers, but when the QB only throws eight passes they get lazy.  Then it only takes one big pass, for a touchdown.

Ary: So Tebow tricks the opposing team not to do their job so the Broncos can win?

Bruce:  Exactly, plus, the other Bronco players make Tebow look better than he really is, a lot better.

Ary: The fans seemed pretty happy with his performance.

Bruce:  I don’t understand that; no matter how many bad games Tebow plays the fans think that he’s great. I'll never understand that.

Ary: It seems to me that no matter how many good games Tebow has you aren’t willing to give him any credit.  He’s rather inexperienced as an NFL quarterback, he has a lot of critics, people who not only are waiting for him to fail, they are actually rooting for him to fail.  But even with that extra pressure, he led his team to a winning season.  It sees rather bizarre for a member of a team to be complaining about its leader, especially one who has been successful.

Bruce:  Tebow brings it on himself.  He makes a big show of being religious and praying and all.  He should knock that off.

Ary: He doesn’t seem to be making a big deal about it to me.  As for praying, what is he supposed to do, leave the sidelines and hide somewhere while he’s praying?

Bruce:  Just don’t kneel. If he wants to pray, just stand there and pray.

Ary: maybe Tim isn’t comfortable doing that.  Besides, with all of the negative associated with athletes these days, having one who promotes a positive set of values and faith seems like a good thing.

Bruce:  But it turns people off. It offends them.

Ary: For the life of me I don’t see how.  If you are watching him kneeling you aren’t watching the game.

Bruce:  But he’s always thanking God on camera too.

Ary: If I had a nickel for every athlete, movie star, and celebrity who thanked god on camera I’d be rich and based on their life styles most of them are just saying it.  I think the problem is that people know that Tim really means it.

[Bruce was silent for a minute before speaking.]

Bruce:  do you really think that Tebow’s God cares enough about a football game to interfere with the outcome, and if he does isn’t that cheating?

Ary:  I’ll tell you what I do know – God cared enough to have His Son to pay for our sins.  That makes us pretty important to Him.  If you want to know if God guides Tim’s arm, or gives him extra speed, or whatever, I can’t answer that, why don’t you ask Him yourself.


The above was adapted from an article located at the following URL accessed on 2/21/12
http://aol.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2012-02-21/tim-tebow-denver-broncos-brady-quinn-sour-grapes?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl4%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D137176#ixzz1n3JeZhfY

Stealing 'The Star of Bethlehem'

It's bad enough that we have to deal with atheists taking shots at Christmas let alone misguided believers. Every year someone claims to have figured out what the Star of Bethlehem really was; by which they mean: it wasn't miraculous.  The latest is a lawyer turned amateur astronomer who used a computer program to move the night sky back to its configuration around the time of Jesus birth.  His claim is that the ‘Star’ was really just a grouping of stars and planets which held a particular significance to the Magi.  Not only is this wrong, it is insulting to believers as it rips the supernatural away and reduces the ‘star’ to just an ordinary natural occurrence.  In other words, God had to wait on the universe to send His son instead of commanding the universe to announce His birth.  The premise fails on a number of points:

1) Why would a grouping of stars have a significance for a group of foreign scholars?  The general consensus is that the Magi were Babylonian and most likely adherents to Zoroastrianism.  In that case, they would have been looking for a sign announcing the return of their savior known as the sayoshant.  Whatever the star was, it had to have an arresting power to direct the Magi to Bethlehem.


Traditional image WRONG.
Shepherds did not see the Star

2) The star appeared only to the Magi and no one else as far as we can tell.  Mat. 2:7 "Then Herod privately summoned the wise men and determined from them when the star had appeared."  If others had seen the star it would unnecessary to ask this question.  Note, this also means the shepherds did not see the star-paintings, and carols not with standing.



3) Some claim that the Magi spent two years traveling to find Jesus.  This is nonsense.  Trade routes were well established in those days.  The journey from Babylon to Jerusalem/Bethlehem was about 550 miles.  Caravans averaged between 4 and 8 miles per day. At that rate the magi would have been in Jerusalem in 75 to 150 days if they started immediately.  It is my contention that they did not start immediately as they had to ascertain the meaning of the star, and only when they understood its meaning did they begin their journey.

An additional note regarding the magi.  It is customary to show them on camels or a camel, an elephant and a horse, but only one of these animals is correct.  No magi would ever ride a camel.  That would be like the queen of England riding in a sewer truck.  Okay, maybe that's an exaggeration but not by much.  Magi would have ridden horses; their servants would be on camels.

The procession of the three kings by Benozzo Gozzoli The Museums of Florence

Scroll down to the bottom of the above link and notice what the magi are riding.

4)There are two curious verses in Mat. 2: 9) When they had heard the king they departed and lo the star whch they saw in the east went before them till it came and stood over where the young child was. 10) When they saw the star they rejoiced with exceeding great joy. 

The words used to describe the intensity of their joy imply near violence or horrendously great.  They were so happy to see the star that perhaps they assaulted each other as athletes sometimes do.  This is remarkable in two respects; 1) it is hardly the manner we would expect of men of their station, and 2) why react that way if the star had been visible continuously.  I believe that the star led them as far as Jerusalem or perhaps only Damascus (as suggested in Flower) and then vanished.  Their reaction is consistent with this idea in that it once again appeared to lead them.

It is my firm belief, based on the above that the Star of Bethlehem was a miraculous sign from God unrelated to planets or comets or stars or anything else of nature.

Additional notes: The number and names of the Magi are not recorded.  My personal belief is that there were 12. 

Anything or anyone who diminishes The Star of Bethlehem via a natural explanation or extension of its visibility to anyone but the magi is stealing The Star by turning it into merely a star and they should be ignored.

The Reason for THE Season

Mat (Mature Atheist Turtle) in his front yard speaking with Ary (Christian)

Mat: How do you like my sign?

Ary: Well, there isn't much to it.  I doubt if most people will know who Mithra was or perhaps even the winter solstice.

Mat: You're just afraid that we atheists are doing away with Christmas.  Most businesses now advertise Holiday sales, and decorations and avoid the word Christmas.

Ary:  There has been a backlash about that.  After complaints a number of stores have gone out of their way to make sure that the word Christmas is included in their promotions.

Mat: Yeah, but it's not like it was before.

Ary: Perhaps, but you are leaving out half the globe with your sign.

Mat: How?

Ary:  The Winter Solstice is only in December in the northern hemisphere.  It's the Summer solstice in the Southern Hemisphere.

Mat: What different does it make?  Jesus wasn't born in December anyway.

Ary: But Christmas isn't about the month of the year or the changing of seasons, it's about the birth of Jesus.

Mat: And Christians don't know when that was so they stole someone else's celebration.

Ary:  It's true that the early church wasn't focused on the birth of Jesus.  They were much more interested in His resurrection.  The whole birth thing smacked of paganism, but as time passed and more and more people became Christians, two things happened.  First, the Christians didn't want to celebrate the pagan holidays and they became interested in Jesus' birthday. 

Mat: Yeah, and they tried to muscle out the Mithras celebrations. 

Saturnalia, escultura en el Jardín Botánico de Bs.As
Usuario:Roberto Fiadone
From Wikimedia Commons freely licensed media file

Ary: No, it was more about maintaining the festive atmosphere common to Saturnalia.  Saturnalia was started about 200 B.C. to raise the spirits of Rome after their defeat by the Carthaginians.  It grew to a multi-day  festival which Romans would not abandon.  It also got a bit out of hand with the drinking and cavorting but while Christmas retained a number of the elements of the celebration common to Saturnalia, it is incorrect to say that it replaced it because Saturnalia ran from December 17th through the 23rd and Christmas in the 25th.

Mat: Close enough to count as far as I am concerned.  Christians stole the Winter Solstice and Saturnalia for their own selfish purposes.

Ary:  Perhaps there is another option.  The Mishna and Talmud describe in Avodah Zara 8a Saturna which occurs before the Winter solstice.  There is another 8 day long celebration after the solstice called Kalenda.  This celebration is said to have originated with Adam as follows:

"GEMARA. Said R. Hanan b. Raba: KALENDA is kept on the eight days following the [winter] equinox. SATURNALIA on the eight days preceding the equinox. As a mnemonic take the verse, Thou hast beset me behind and before.¹³


Our Rabbis taught:¹⁴  When primitive Adam saw the day getting gradually shorter, he said, 'Woe is me, perhaps because I have sinned, the world around me is being darkened and returning to its state of chaos and confusion; this then is the kind of death to which I have been sentenced from Heaven!' So he began keeping an eight days' fast. But as he observed the winter equinox and noted the day getting increasingly longer, he said, 'This is the world's course', and he set forth to keep an eight days' festivity. In the following year he appointed both¹⁵  as festivals. Now, he fixed them for the sake of Heaven, but the [heathens] appointed them for the sake of idolatry."
Avodah Zara 8a

So, allow me to summarize.  Your sign is off because it refers to the Winter Solstice (excluding the Southern hemisphere) and Mithra, neither of which is applicable to Christmas.  Further, those who maintain that Christians annexed Saturnalia are off based on the Date of Christmas (December 25, when Saturnalia ended on December 23).  Finally, we have evidence that the Jews believed that Adam (the first man) celebrated a festival around the time of Christmas.  It is possible to make the case that December 25 was chosen to honor that celebration, which the Gamara says was defiled by the pagan.

Mat: Time to Turtle up!

Zombie Apocalypse part 1

[The Walking Dead is a popular television series in its second season in the United States.  The long anticipated zombie apocalyse has happened: How, has not yet been revealed.  The series follows a group of survivors who are trying to avoid becoming zombies themselves.  The interest the Atheist Turtle has in the show is its exploration of the faith of the main characters.  Rick is a deputy sheriff by profession. He is a straight shooter with a well developed sense of right and wrong.  Glenn is a former pizza delivery boy in his early 20's.  He is of asian extraction and is a blank canvass as far as faith goes.  Hershel is a retired veternarian with a strong and apparently unshaken faith it God.  As Rick is searching for a lost child from their group he enters a church.  At the front of the church is a crucifix.  Rick looks at the figure of Jesus and asks for a sign that he is doing the right thing by leading the group.  Shortly afterward Rick's son Carl is accidently shot and nearly dies.  They make their way to Hershel's farm where Hershel operates on Carl and saves his life.]

Maggie (a member of Hershel's family. She finds Glenn alone on the porch)  I'm sorry, were you praying?

Glenn: Yeah, I guess.

Maggie: are you religious?

Glenn:  No, not really.  I guess I just figure that we could all use some prayer now.  What about you?  Do you think prayer helps?

Maggie: I have to figure that with everything that has happened, there had to have been a lot of prayers which went unaswered.  But, yeah, I still pray.

---------------------------------------
[During break in show]

Mat (sarcastically): I suppose you are going to tell me that every prayer gets answered - Yes, No, or not now.

Ary: Suppose I did say that?

Mat: That answer only satisfies the sheep.  They are too stupid to question things rationally  That answer is a cop-out.  It's a way to justify whatever happens and leave god in control.

Ary: you realize it's just a television show don't you?  It isn't real.

Mat: Neither is god.

Ary (smiles):  What caused the Zombie Apocalypse?

Mat: In the show?

Ary:  Yes.

Mat: We don't know.  Probably a chemical weapon gone awry.

Ary: So, something humans have done.

Mat: probably.

Ary: And you think it shows that God either doesn't exist, or doesn't care that He doesn't do something in answer to prayers.

Mat: or  he is not powerful enough to do anything.

Ary: How many of the prayers do you suppose were from people who don't believe in God? Should He have answered them?

Mat: Why not?

Ary: Why would He? So they can turn their back on Him again until they are in another disaster?

Mat: What about his believers; why doesn't he answer their prayers?

Ary: I can't really answer for God, but suppose I was Him, how do I decide whose prayer(s) to answer?

Mat: By answer you mean - intervene in a positive way not the yes, no or not yet?

Ary: Right.  I grant their wish.

Mat (sarcastically):  I guess based on merit.  The best person's prayer is granted first.

Ary: There are two problems with that. First, God isn't in the wish granting business.  Remember, we said they were the wishes of the individual.  God has His plan for our lives and if some one is making wishes which oppose that plan He is not going to go along with it.

Mat: Even if it means being chewed on by a zombie?

Ary: Zombie, cancer, heart attack.  We are going to die from something eventually.  In this case we did it it was up to us.
Mat: Up to us?  I didn't vote for zombies.

Ary: Actually you did.  From the beginning we have been trying to replace God, to become Him - We've had three chances: Garden, Ark, and Nativity.  In each case we had a chance to live life according to His plan but we rejected it.

Mat: So it's our fault?

Ary: No, it's your fault.

Mat starts to object

Ary: And my fault.  Each of us individually makes the choice to honor God or not.  And, by the way, God doesn't play favorites; one believer is not more worthy than another.

to be continued.

doesn't play favorites.

Logical Proof That God Exists

(Atheists frequently confront believers with a demand for proof that God exists.  The demand is presented with a smug assumption that it cannot be met.  However, that assumption is not correct.  It rests on multiple levels of assumptions which are flawed and therefore must collapse.  The destructive blow can be initiated using something called The Ontological Argument for the Existence of God.  Now, don't let  your eyes glaze over, there is nothing mysterious about this.  In fact, you can rephrase it to read: "Logical proof that God exists."  In the following discussion, some scary logical symbols are going to show up.  They are included for accuracy and so you can impress your friends.  Print the image out then show your friends and explain how they prove God exists.)

Atheist Bus

Ariane Sherine, Richard Dawkins and

 Polly Toynbee

(Photo: Leon Neal/Agence

 France-Presse — Getty Images)

 Mat (Mature Atheist Turtle handing a newspaper with a picture of the bus and thee people standing in front to Ary): I see the Atheist Bus is out again.

Ary: For the life of me I never understand why you are so proud of that thing.

Mat: Because it takes a stand for atheism and shoves it right in the face of believers.

Ary: But the sign says, "There Probably is no god."  What probability is that exactly; 10%, 20%, 50%; I guess as long is you dont' exceed 49.99% the sign is accurate.

Mat: That isn't the point. It isn't up to us to prove there is no god, it's up to you to prove that there is, and you can't do that, can you?

Ary: As a matter of fact, I can.

Mat: So do it!

Gödel's Ontological Proof for God

Ary (hands a card with symbols on it to Mat): Here, look this over.

Mat:  What is this crap?  It looks like a bunch of gibberish to me.

Ary: It's Kurt Gödel's Ontological proof for God

Mat: Ugh, some idiot believer comes up with a bunch of symbols no one

can understand ... I'm not impressed. 

Ary: Well, first of all, Kurt Gödel is not some idiot, he was one of the greatest mathematicians and logicians of the 20th Century.  He was also not necessarily a believer in God.  He spent decades of his life secretly working on this proof and only showed it to a friend of his when he thought he was dying.  He didn't want to be ridiculed by you atheists.

Mat: Yeah, I've heard of the ontological argument for god.  Anselm started it but it's been shown to be flawed and no one accepts it now.

Ary: That's not correct.  It was started by Anselm in the 11th century, and his proof did have weaknesses, but since then it has been improved by; René Descartes, Gottfried Leibniz (the guy who invented calculus), Norman Malcolm, Charles Hartshorne, Alvin Plantinga and more recently Kurt Gödel.

Mat: So what, all I see is a bunch of symbols, what does it mean?

Ary:  God can either necessarily exist, or necessarily not exist.

If God is an all-powerful being, and

he exists,

he necessarily exists in all possible worlds.

If he doesn't exist,

he necessarily doesn't exist in any possible worlds.

It is not possible to say that God does not exist in any possible world.

No matter how slim the chance is, God might exist.

That means that God can't necessarily not exist.

Since the choices are either God necessarily does exist, or

necessarily doesn't, and

we have eliminated the possibility that he necessarily doesn't,

the only possibility left is that he necessarily does."

Mat: All that comes from those symbols?

Ary: Those symbols are just sentences for logicians.  They eliminate the language barrier. 

Mat: I still don't see it.  Richard Dawkins is one of the greatest minds of our lifetime and he doesn't believe in god.

Ary: I can't speak for Mr. Dawkins but the sign on the bus he is promoting actually proves God exists.

Mat:  How, it says "probably doesn't exist."

Ary: Exactly, remember the statement above that if it was possible for God to exist, no matter how slim the chance, then God must exist?  When they put 'probably' on the side of the bus they allowed for the possibility that God exists and according to Gödel's proof that satisfies the condition and therefore, by the statement on the side of the atheist bus, God exists.

Mat (stares at the proof and the bus picture): I need to 'turtle up'.