Tuesday, October 25, 2011

Have You Ever Seen A Miracle?/Watch Out for Flying Pigs

A livingroom

Mat (Mature Atheist Turtle)
Ary (Christian Preacher)

Mat: Do you think god would ever make a pig fly
Ary: Why would He?

Mat: Because, if I ever saw a pig fly I would believe in god.
Ary: (laughs)  That's all it would take?  He actually did once, but the landing wasn't so good.  Anyway, I thought you said that miracles are impossible.

Mat:  I did, and they are.  Think about it.  If god created the universe, that means he established the laws that govern it, so, if he does something that violates one of his laws then his laws are not unbreakable, so he can't be god.
Ary: I don't see any connection between your premise and conclusion.  Why does God violating one of His laws invalidate His existence?
Mat: Because he wasn't powerful enough to create a law which couldn't be broken.  Gotcha!

Ary: Give me an example.
Mat: Sure: 2 Kings 6:1-7
"1 Now the sons of the prophets said to Elisha, “Behold now, the place before you where we are living is too limited for us. 2 Please let us go to the Jordan, and each of us take from there a beam, and let us make a place there for ourselves where we may live.” So he said, “Go.” 3 Then one said, “Please be willing to go with your servants.” And he answered, “I shall go.” 4 So he went with them; and when they came to the Jordan, they cut down trees. 5 But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water; and he cried out and said, “Alas, my master! For it was borrowed.” 6 Then the man of God said, “Where did it fall?” And when he showed him the place, he cut off a stick, and threw it in there, and made the iron float. 7 And he said, “Take it up for yourself.” So he put out his hand and took it."

Didn't happen.  Iron is more dense that water and an axe head would not have floated.

Ary: Why are you so sure?
Mat: Archimedes, he discovered the law of buoyancy.  "When a solid body is partially or completely immersed in water, the apparent loss in weight will be equal to the weight of the displaced liquid."*

* Read more: How to Calculate Buoyancy | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how_2101130_calculate-buoyancy.html#ixzz1boTmMF8p

Ary: So it's Archimedes' law right?
Mat: Right, it's a scientific principle.

Ary:  But what limits God's ability to over rule Archimedes?
Mat: Because he would be violating the law.
Ary: I thought you said it was a principle.
Mat: Law, principle, it's the same thing.  God can't just go around ignoring science.
Ary: Says who?
Mat (getting visibly excited and loud): Me, that's who. If god did that we would be able to predict how things behave.

Ary: God doesn't do it very often so our ability to predict and study is still intact and, just because Archimedes, or Newton, or Gauss, or Hook, or Maxwell, or anyone else identifies a 'law' or principle does not limit God from doing whatever He wants to.

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